No One Should Die for $20: Are Black Folks Defiant or Targeted By Police? Episode 8 Excerpt

Aaminah Norris: Recently, I sat for a conversation with my cousin Sharn who is my mom’s first cousin. Because he is from my mom’s generation he has some ideas about policing and police brutality that are a lot different than mine. Sharn points out that Black people are defiant with the police and this leads to police violence. I argue that police brutality is systematized. Black lives should be valued. No one should die for $20. Sharn doesn’t realize that he was arrested by the police until our discussion. The entire transcript can be found here. Listen to episode 8 of UnHidden Voices Podcast on YouTube, Anchor, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Aaminah Norris Do you ever experience having bad interactions with the police just on the strength, they pulled you over just because you are Black or anybody that you know?

Sharn No, the times that I’ve been pulled over. I haven’t had any issues.

Aaminah Norris Yeah, that’s good. All right. Let’s see. Have you ever protested against police violence?

Sharn No.

Aaminah Norris Why not?

Sharn There’s no reason. They didn’t have much here. It’s just me. Whenever something happens, I try to go back to the beginning because that’s where the incident started. Not what happened in the middle or the end. And Again, if you’re doing something that you’re not supposed to be doing. And you get caught. Don’t make it worse.

Aaminah Norris Yeah, I get it. Okay then, let me ask you this when you talk about they did something to start it. Are you talking about Black people or the cops? I’m not sure who’s they?

Sharn Well, I guess we’re talking about the Black person, like if the cops see you with a gun and you gonna start running and then even shoot once or twice, but then you get shot the cops were wrong for shooting you.

Sharn Just like with the guy, the guy that just got killed. And then they tried to say he was hallucinating or something. They cuffed him and something else happened and he ended up dying.

Aaminah Norris Damn. See yeah, I guess that’s what I wonder about the most because I feel like all these people wind up dying. And do you think that, well, I guess that leads me to the next question? What do you think about the way the police interact with black people?

Sharn I don’t think it’s right. I mean, they always portrayed themselves as the authority, and then they just keep it at that level.

Aaminah Norris Yeah.

Sharn It gets worse if you start saying more. You know if you just keep it short and simple. I mean, it’s just like what you tell your kids. You know, don’t talk back to me I’m talking. You tell them not to talk back to the teacher. You know, and it’s the same thing. You’re not gonna win. You’re not gonna win with your parents. You’re not going to win with the teacher. And you are not going to win with the cops.

Aaminah Norris But Sharn. Sharn okay, don’t you think that some of these people like the cops are just killing them, and they are not arguing with them? Like George Floyd, he was begging. He said, “Please, I can not breathe.” What was he doing to warrant you know what I’m saying?

Sharn I’m still asking was the $20 bill fake because you still haven’t heard that. I need an answer. Was it fake or not?

Aaminah Norris Ok so let me ask you this, ok so let’s say this if the answer is yes, do you think he deserved to die that way for $20?

Sharn Oh no, he didn’t do anything. But my thing is I want to know why they pulled him out of the police car. They put him in and took him out on the other side. You had him in the car what’d you take him out for? So for the employees to come out and approach them, go back in call the cops, and then a cop shows up. He’s still sitting there. He never left.

Aaminah Norris Because I don’t think he thought he did anything wrong because the $20 bill was not fake.

Sharn Unless he was high or drunk or something?

Aaminah He wasn’t. They did a test. He was not. They did an autopsy he was not.

Sharn All you gotta do is close the dag on the door. He’s handcuffed. I’ve been in the back of a police car. When you sit down, the legs ain’t coming up.

Aaminah Norris Wait, you just said you haven’t had any bad interactions with the police and now you’re telling me you’ve been in the back of a police car.

Sharn Right. But it wasn’t a bad interaction. It wasn’t a bad interaction.

Aaminah Norris What? Because you felt like you deserved to be arrested?

Sharn No, I wasn’t arrested. I was a suspect of drunk driving. And they followed me. Once I got off the highway they followed to my complex. And once I pulled into the complex they put the lights on. They had me do the sobriety test, then you went talking and said alright we going to take you to the station. So they put me in the back of the police car. And I told them when they put the handcuffs on that it was on my bone or whatever. So they put an extension on another handcuff, something whatever they did. Then sitting in the back of the police car and they didn’t take the local they took me going north on the parkway to Lakewood. And flying down the parkway and then they get off the parkway with me flying down these dark roads. If a deer would have come out that would have been it. It took me all the way there. And it was a lady cop and the man cop, the man cop was cool. The lady cop was the one that was whatever.

Aaminah Norris No no wait back up. You said it was a decent interaction. What was decent?

Sharn Because listen you got all these titles. I gotta be nice. I ain’t tryna be street around here. I gotta act like I got a little sense now. Yes, so they set me down. He didn’t even handcuff me to the bench. He just told me to put the cuffs around it. So I did that and sat there. Then did the breathalyzer test. I passed it. She comes back into the room and tells them to do it again. Let me and he’s asking me questions, and I’m Sir. Sir. And he’s like stop calling me sir. And I’m like no, Sir. I’m not, sir. Sir, yes, sir. No, sir. Well, as I said, It wasn’t a bad interaction. I mean.

Aaminah Norris Okay so so let me say this.

Sharn And It was the only time I’ve been in the back of a police car

Yes, but I think what I hear you saying is that you don’t think it was a bad interaction, because they didn’t actually like hit you, or pull a gun on you or something. But like for them to arrest you for no reason, and take you downtown.

Sharn I didn’t get arrested.

Aaminah Norris But that’s what it’s called.

Sharn No, I was never arrested.

Aaminah Norris When they put the handcuffs on you. No, you were never charged. They arrested you. You were not charged. You were arrested because that’s what it is when they put the handcuffs on you and take you. If they weren’t there you would have gone into your house, right? But they stopped you because they arrested you and took you somewhere they wanted you to go. And what I’m saying is that is racist. And you said you had no racist interactions with the police. And I’m like yes you did because you said you passed the breathalyzer test.

Sharn Well,

Aaminah Norris So they had no reason to do that.

Sharn Well, I passed the breathalyzer test at the station.

Aaminah Norris Oh, you didn’t pass it at first?

Sharn I did the roadside one first. No, they didn’t give me the breathalyzer on the scene, they gave it to me at the station.

Aaminah Norris But if you

Sharn only did the sobriety..only did the sobriety thing you know touch your nose and all that.

Aaminah Norris Okay, so touch your nose and all that stuff and they said you didn’t pass it?

Sharn I thought I did. As I said, she was the one calling all the shots. (Yeah) So I did a sobriety test because I did it with him and then they talked and then the next one, he did it. That’s when they put the cuffs on me, put me back in the car.

Aaminah Norris Yeah, see, that’s you know like literally every single person in our family that I have talked to has had a run-in with the police and every single one and even the children. Like Kiara, I talked to her today. And she said that she had a run-in with the police. They had their hands on their guns, talking to her. And I talked to Dougie yesterday, and he was talking about this. I talked to Aniyah and she was telling me how they pulled her over and they were questioning her “where you coming from?” and she was like “Dunkin Donuts.”

Sharn Right, I call it the Black question. Uh-huh, where are you going? Where are you coming from?

Aaminah Norris Oh so, you know, you have a whole set of questions. That they ask us and don’t ask other people? The Black questions?

Sharn What I call the Black question is where you going, where you’re coming from. Yeah, one night I was coming home on the expressway. It was Like two in the morning and a state trooper came out of nowhere. Pulled me over. And he said, “where you’re coming from?” I had my uniform on. I think he said, “where are you coming from?” He said, “Oh, you just getting off from work?” He said, “well you swerved a little bit back there so that’s why I pulled you over.” He said, “I’ ma let you go.” I said, “Okay, thank you.” And that was an Asian guy.

Aaminah Norris Hmm but see I think that. All right. Well, see, see this has frustrated me. Because honestly, I was like okay, I need to just hear the stories. None of them are good, you know what I mean?

Sharn (laughter) You said none of them are good. Well, I don’t know if someone’s talking to me with their gun, with their hand on their gun that’s something to talk about. I mean, I know they approached the car that way and like when I had my Prius. I have my windows tinted. They weren’t heavily tinted. They were factory tinted. But when they pulled me over, I just put down all the windows. No, I’m pulling them down and my hands are out the windows. I’m doing that as soon as you pull me over. Turning off the music and doing all that stuff. But see, you got others that are defiant. I don’t understand what it is.

Aaminah Norris Okay, let me say this, Sharn because I think that the reality is, I think that it’s the system. And I feel like most of the people who are getting pulled over, it’s not that they’re defiant. Its that there’s discrimination. There’s racism. They’re being targeted. Do you know what I mean? And the sad part about it is that our lives aren’t valuable enough for these people not to wind up dying because nobody should die for $20. Do you know what I’m saying? I don’t care if it was fake. Even if it was fake. Do you think that a white person is going to sit up here and die for a fake $20 bill? Heck no. That wouldn’t even be a question. But because it’s a Black man, yeah you know he could lose his life over that. And I mean, and all the things you’re saying there are people like Philando Castille. He said my gun, I have a gun. But it’s registered. Right?

Sharn Is that the guy that was in the car with his girlfriend and kid?

Aaminah Norris He was in Minneapolis too. Yeah, and his daughter and they shot him.

Sharn Yeah, yeah, and she filmed it live. Yeah.

Aaminah Norris He wasn’t being defiant. Do you know what I’m saying? I’m like the only person that they said he was being defiant was Rodney King, and we both know that wasn’t true. He was getting his butt beat. And they were mad because he was trying to stand up. And they tried to beat him down.

Sharn Yeah, because they want you to stay down.

Aaminah Norris Because they’re trying to show you your place, you know what I mean? They just beat the sense out of you when you act like you have any kind of dignity about yourself. And that that makes me upset.

Sharn My thing is but those people aren’t like that just because they’re cops. They’re like that because that’s who they are. They still would have that mouth they just wouldn’t have the backup that they have as being a cop.

Aaminah Norris Right. But the question I have for you is do you honestly think it’s a coincidence that every single person that I talked to in our family has had a negative interaction with the police? Do you think that’s a coincidence, or do you think it’s because we’re a Black family?

Sharn I don’t know, I mean, would they not be doing their job if they don’t look into an incident that they think might have happened?

Aaminah Norris What I’m saying to you is because this is the incident. I told my daughter. I was pregnant. And I was driving and I had all of my other kids in the car. It was like three babies in the car. I was pregnant with her. Maybe seven months pregnant. He pulled me over for speeding. Then he got me out of the car. He had his hand on his gun as he’s running my tags. I’m like, “why are you running my tag? Like, I did not steal this car. It’s full of my children.” And he’s telling me “well there’s nothing that I can do about that.” Just being a jackass. Sorry.

Sharn Right, you know but what I’m saying is that’s not because he’s a cop that’s just who he is.

Aaminah Norris But I’m saying if anything I know it’s the system. I feel like it’s a system. Maybe the system gets the worst of the worst to do the job. I’m just wondering why white people don’t get treated like this. Do you know what I mean? When I talk to white people about how we have interactions with the police and they listen to these stories, their mouths are gonna be dropped to the ground. Because none of them are going to have the same stories that we have. Do you think that everybody that we run into has got a bad attitude? Or do you think it’s just like a concerted effort to mistreat Black people?

Sharn I want to say both. But I want to say more about the people talking too much. Because like I said you’re not going to win. But see then when they take it further than yes, that’s when it’s wrong. The questions are going to do nothing but frustrate them. Do you know what I am saying? You’re not going to get the answers. I mean what you were saying to me is crazy because when someone is speeding all they usually do is just check your license see if you got any other outstanding stuff. But to have you get out of the car. For what?

Aaminah Norris Yes. I am seven months pregnant with, you know, an eight-year-old and a seven-year-old. Why would I be stealing a car and go for a joy ride with all of these doggone kids in the car? Why would I take them? Why would I do that? But I think he wanted me to have something so he could actually arrest me and take them away from me. He wanted to have a reason to do that and that’s the reason. And that’s horrible.

Sharn Exactly. Exactly.